Our older daughter is in the last hours of picking which universities to apply to for next year’s admissions.
Last night, we went through the list of eight colleges and universities, as we have been doing regularly for several months. Among them are two in Canada, one being the University of Toronto.
I reached over and picked up the Princeton Review’s List of 366 best colleges and universities, which has been like a Bible around our house, and immediately saw the number of students at Toronto: nearly 60,000.
“Why would you want to go to a university with 60,000 students?” I asked.
To which she promptly replied something like, “Well, it’s on Jiao Tong University’s list of best universities in the world.”
Say what? You’re going to take Shanghai Jiao Tong University’s word on where the best places for you to go to school are?
I had vaguely heard that the Shanghai university made an annual list of the best research university’s in the world but didn’t pay it much heed. After all, those kinds of lists often strike me as arbitrary.
I got up this morning still thinking about the matter. After Googling the list, I quickly found that places like the University of Wisconsin, Madison, and the University of Minnesota proudly note that they are fairly high on Jiao Tong’s list.
Wikipedia says that Jiao Tong makes its list using “a formula that took into account alumni winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals (10 percent), staff winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals (20 percent), ‘highly-cited researchers in 21 broad subject categories’ (20 percent), articles published in Nature and Science (20 percent), the Science Citation Index, Social Sciences Citation Index, and Arts and Humanities Citation Index (20 percent) and the per capita academic performance (on the indicators above) of an institution (10 percent).
So it seems that they are using standardized criteria.
Here’s an article that says there are only two global rankings that index universities, the other being The Times Higher Education Supplement, which apparently is more holistic and takes into consideration fellow academics’ opinions of any given university.
The equivalent in the United States might be the annual US News & World Report ratings, although I haven’t seen them in many years.
In this part of the world, though, the Jiao Tong list is taken increasingly seriously.
The Jiao Tong list is relevant in the sense that it emphasizes faculty research output, and the high ranking of some state universities in the U.S. refelcts this. But a profilic researcher won't necessarily turn into a good lecturer; in some (most) cases, the opposite is true. In that sense, I would prefer a well-regarded liberal arts college or a medium sized private university to any of those humongous "big" school.
In any case, a college is just a high-priced place where you lose your virginity. A 60,000 student school will give you more choices then.
Posted by: anonymous | November 12, 2008 at 11:10 PM
My daughter is doing the same thing right now. If your daughter wants to go to a smaller university and if Canada is still your choice, you should consider University of British Columbia which also scores very high in the Jiao Tong Study. I think UBC's enrollment is about 40,000 but situated on a much more beautiful campus than UofT.
Posted by: Bill W | November 12, 2008 at 11:34 PM
Choosing an undergraduate institution based on the Jiaotong study seems absolutely bizarre to me. Why would you consider doing that? How does it matter whether UBC is high on it or not? Are you serious, Bill? Tim?
This is not meant as an attack on the study, which might be measuring something useful. But not the quality of undergraduates programs, that is for sure. Why does the study get attention? Because top-x lists for anything tend to get attention, and because every university that is ranked high will put out a press release about it. Which is the point. If I make up a list of "most awesome school" and tell the schools about it, their PR office will probably put out a press release about it that mentions my study. Again, not accusing the Jiaotong study of anything, though I have my doubts about anybody being able to to a valid comparison across different countries, languages, and systems based on a few statistics.
Anyway, UBC is a great school. So are many others. I am faculty at a decent but not top school in the US, and I am always amazed how obsessed people are about getting into a particular school because of its ranking. Fact is, there are hundreds of schools in the US, and at least dozens in Canada, and in most other countries, that can give you an excellent education. Everybody relax. Stop staring at the rankings. But if you do want to look at rankings, the Jiaotong study is the least useful one for undergraduate study. First pick a country! Then if you must, look at the ranking in the country.
Posted by: TS | November 13, 2008 at 12:55 AM
Canadian universities are very different socially than US universities. Your daughter should think about that, as there is a lot more to picking a school than the number of nobel prize winners on the faculty. She should pick the school that is right for her!
Posted by: Dan | November 13, 2008 at 02:33 AM
Yeah, Noble prizes won by other people is not related to your daughter's success and happiness in college.
Those prizes are in a narrow set of fields which might not include your daughter's interests.
BTW, there are many good schools in the US which are free of tuition: Stanford, Universty of Chicago, Cooper Union, etc.
BTW2, University of Wisconsin at Madison was recently ranked as one of the top "party schools" (nothing wrong with that)
Posted by: Vince | November 13, 2008 at 11:56 AM
The Jiaotong ranking is actually not that bad, but it's based on "research", and so is not very appropriate for choosing a UNDERGRADUATE SCHOOL. The US News ranking, however, is appropriate for choosing colleges, as their criteria are for undergrads.
The funny thing is that most Chinese students, when choosing graduate schools in the US, look at the US News "best college ranking", not realizing it's NOT an overrall university ranking (including graduate schools), but overral undergraduate ranking. Of courese the US News has graduate programs rankings as well, but their ranking in this regard is not as authoritative as the NRC (national research council) ranking. Sadly, the last NRC ranking was in 1995 so quite a bit old. I keep hearing that the new NRC ranking is coming out, but it never did.
Back to your daughtor's choice. What are the 8 schools you're considering? And what are your and her criteria? Readers here might offer some advice.
Posted by: carolinian | November 13, 2008 at 02:20 PM
BTW, UW Madison and U of Minisota have quite good reputations in terms of academic research, but as state universities, how good they are in undergraduate education, I don't know.
Posted by: carolinian | November 13, 2008 at 02:29 PM
My youngest daughter went to a small liberal arts college that doesn't even feature on the JT list. (Haverford Coll.) Because they don't have any grad students there are two good benefits: (1) all the teaching is done by the profs, and (2) since the profs do continue to do good research, they hire undergrads as their research assistants. By one year after graduating, she had become a named co-author on four or five peer-reviewed research articles in her field (cognitive psych.)
You certainly don't get that kind of experience as an undergrad at any of the big research universities. She had also had an amazing, all-round experience as part of a small, dedicated learning community. (Smaller than her high school in terms of numbers... lots of close contact with faculty mentors as well as great relationships with fellow-students...)
So yes, look for a lot more than just the Nobel Prize winners, etc, for a young person's first degree. Those factors kick in with more relevance at grad school.
Posted by: Helena Cobban | November 13, 2008 at 04:37 PM
Hey Dan, I'm curious about your remark that Canadian universities are different socially. How so? The social part of the university experience was what made it a blast for me.
Posted by: Tim J | November 13, 2008 at 07:21 PM
Carolinian, I'm afraid I can't list the colleges and universities she's applying to. She's already unhappy that I even mention her in this blog. She'd see it as an invasion of her privacy.
Posted by: Tim J | November 13, 2008 at 07:23 PM
Helena Cobban writes: "My youngest daughter went to a small liberal arts college .... By one year after graduating, she had become a named co-author on four or five peer-reviewed research articles in her field (cognitive psych.)
You certainly don't get that kind of experience as an undergrad at any of the big research universities."
Here, I disagree. I think your daughter was lucky getting involved in research, because at least in my field (Computer Science) there is relatively little strong research being conducted in small colleges. Small colleges have their advantages, but if a student really wants to participate in research as an undergrad, your best bet might be a strong state school (Penn State, Wisconsin, etc.) that does good research in your field.
Why? Well, again, many small colleges do not have much research (yes, there are exceptions). Ivies such as Harvard do have great research, but it is hard to get the professor's attention since there are so many strong students. But if you are among the very top students at, e.g., Penn State (not my school), which has strong research but not that many really strong undergrads, all the profs will want to take you on as an assistant. In my department, faculty compete to work with the best undergrads who, if they were at Harvard, would be only considered average.
Posted by: TS | November 13, 2008 at 08:26 PM
Some top liberal arts schools are great in educating undergrads. But between medium-ranked large universities and medium-ranked small colleges, I think most successful Ph.D. gradutes will choose the former to go, in the long run that is. In other words, professors in medium-ranked large universities are probably better academians than those in medium-ranked small colleges. The downside is of course they also focus more on research than teaching.
Posted by: carolinian | November 13, 2008 at 08:52 PM
U of Toronto is not bad (well known in Asia at least). If she's going to find a job in the US, however, it's probably better choosing a US college than a Canadian college, simply because US employers will have some uncertainty about how to evaluate a degree from a Canadian school. They are not going to dig up the Jiaotong or the THES ranking to see how Canadian schools are comparable to US schools.
Posted by: carolinian | November 13, 2008 at 09:04 PM
Carolinian writes: "In other words, professors in medium-ranked large universities are probably better academians than those in medium-ranked small colleges. The downside is of course they also focus more on research than teaching."
Yes, that is true in many fields. And one way to identify non-ivy research universities that offer great opportunities for undergraduate research is to look for schools that are ranked high in the PhD program of the field of interest, but not so high in terms of the overall undergraduate ranking (US News) or SAT requirements. At those places, you will find the faculty to be essentially as good in terms of research as at the highest ranked schools. Those tend to be the large state schools, like UWash, Wisconsin, Rutgers, Texas, etc.
But this may depend a little on the field of study. My impression is that in some fields (e.g., social sciences) there is a lot of good research at small colleges, while e.g., for engineering, computer science, and related there is less. This may be because in some fields the job market for PhD graduates is so tough that extremely good researchers end up at small colleges, while in other fields the job market is much better due to industry offering lucratives alternatives. So in those fields, people who choose small colleges do so because they really care about teaching, but often less about research.
Posted by: TS | November 14, 2008 at 02:09 AM
I remember stressing for months about choosing a college, and in the end I realized that it really didn't matter. Perhaps I'm being overly simplistic, but people tend to place too much importance on where they spend their undergraduate years.
My view is location, location, location....choose a place in or near a major, culturally vibrant city or else a great college town. One with good weather also helps :)
Otherwise, college is really what you make of it- whether you go to Harvard or Cal State San Luis Obispo doesn't matter much long term.
Posted by: Matt Schiavenza | November 17, 2008 at 04:38 AM
Well, depends on the program of course. Most of programs at UBC and UofT sucks down to earth... Well, if your daughter is research oriented and do all the study on her own, she may lean to more research oriented schools. However, if your daughter does learn everything on her own, choosing an undergrad school wouldn't be a problem anyway. On the other hand, I would strongly disagree of going to UofT or UBC, there are just simply better choices.
Posted by: Sparkle | November 17, 2008 at 02:46 PM
Check this book. You will know which univ is good for your daughter.
It is upper middle class who care about ivy league. Prolectarian and super wealthy really do not give a damn about.
Posted by: IC | November 20, 2008 at 12:28 PM
I am also in a quandary about my 16 year old son. He goes to an International School of only 200 kids and we live in the BVI (20,000 population). He is interested in both music and theatre, but will probably major in the Humanities. Although things have improved in the U.S. with regard to ethnic polarization, my sense is that inter-racial mixing still raises eyebrows, and frankly, my son simply won't understand this, and I don't want him to be ostracised.
He is biracial and dates accross races, cultures etc. I went to Northwestern, Columbia and University of Cambridge and had a ball at all, but I was coming from a much bigger school and Country (Jamaica) and was used to cut-throat academic rigour.
We are looking at Canada because it's student population is very multi-cultural and multi ethnic; but we are also trying to find a University that has a textured and fun campus life, but is not too vast. Good academics are a must, but name recognition not essential.
Any thoughts at all would be helpful.
Posted by: Stevie57 | December 04, 2008 at 11:18 AM
I am also in a quandary about my 16 year old son. He goes to an International School of only 200 kids and we live in the BVI (20,000 population). He is interested in both music and theatre, but will probably major in the Humanities. Although things have improved in the U.S. with regard to ethnic polarization, my sense is that inter-racial mixing still raises eyebrows, and frankly, my son simply won't understand this, and I don't want him to be ostracised.
He is biracial and dates accross races, cultures etc. I went to Northwestern, Columbia and University of Cambridge and had a ball at all, but I was coming from a much bigger school and Country (Jamaica) and was used to cut-throat academic rigour.
We are looking at Canada because it's student population is very multi-cultural and multi ethnic; but we are also trying to find a University that has a textured and fun campus life, but is not too vast. Good academics are a must, but name recognition not essential.
Any thoughts at all would be helpful.
Posted by: Stevie57 | December 04, 2008 at 11:19 AM
As a faculty member at a prestigious U.S. university, I moved to China and taught for two years at Shanghai JiaoTong University, both graduate students and undergrads. I would never place credibility in a study from such a place. Who are they to rate U.S. universities? lol. Several times the administration asked me to do unethical things; the faculty accept bribes from students regularly, almost as a rule of thumb; and the "original" research is actually routinely plagiarized. The university is run in the most stereotypically backwards Chinese bureacratic way, full of back-door maneuvering and dull-witted decision-making. Anyone willing to base their daughter's college choice on a JiaoDa study, of all things, much less one who positions themselves as an "expert" on China, frankly needs to take a long hard look at themselves.
Posted by: Mortified | January 01, 2009 at 03:20 PM