From "Bill Gates Goes Back to School" (Time): http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1630188,00.html

"There's a great photo of Bill Gates from 1977, the year he would have graduated from Harvard if he hadn't dropped out. He was 22 at the time and looks all of 16. He's got a flowered collar, tinted glasses and feathered blond hair, and he looks so happy, you'd swear he knew what the rest of his life was going to be like. He also has a sign around his neck: it's a mug shot. "I was out driving Paul [Allen]'s car," Gates says, flashing that same smile 30 years later. "They pulled me over, and I didn't have my license, and they put me in with all the drunks all night long. And that's why the rest of my life, I've always tried to have a fair amount of cash with me. I like the idea of being able to bail myself out."

And I'm the guy who produces the show - seems everyone here who wants to make this a) about if he did or did not break the law (which he admitted to) and b) a comparison about The States (which is what a lot of people who have no other regime than to have a go at the U.S. like to do).

Due Process? Not contacting the Consulate as they should have? No contacts? Kicked out of China?

We did do research into what happens to local Shanghainese and the answers varied from '50 kuai fine' to 'impounding the bike', not once in the 10 or so people that we asked was 'jail' ever brought up.

Stop making this about anything other than what it is - a rising anti-western sentiment.

Hi...I'm the person in the video. I haven't had a chance to read through everybody's comments, but here's a quick follow up:

First of all, I never thought I was above the law. I had just gotten the sidecar a week beforehand and was too busy to take 2 days off work to get the license (it's a long process). It was a nice day, and I was did what any other warm blooded human would do if they had just got a motorcycle.

Let me also add, that I took the weekend motorcycle safety course in the US, which is required to legally drive a motorcycle - according to the instructor, most motorcycle drivers in the US aren't legal.

That being said, I think the punishment was too harsh. I would have little respect for the US if the same thing happened to a foreigner driving in the US.

Jail wasn't that "bad"...yeah, it sucked a lot, but I got through it unharmed. No big deal really. The main thing that really upsets me is getting kicked out of China. Leaving everything I've been working for the last 2 years. The document I signed said I would be given ONE punishment (and then it went to list the different punishments, jail time was the chosen). When I was released, they gave me back my passport with a * visa ("get the hell out visa") and was told that I was given this because I didn't respect the "law". The irony of this is, there is no real traffic laws - nobody respects the "law". It's total chaos on the streets, and the police are part of that - ask anyone in China. (note: i wasn't breaking any traffic laws other than the license, I was pulled over because of my skin color). But that's not really my point.

Anyway, I should have thought quick and bribed the first cop that showed up. It takes a lot do develop a Chinese mindset.

On a separate note - I'd really like to find out what what would the American government do to a Chinese national driving without one of the United States state drivers licenses and could not read or speak English?

A friend of mine who has a Chinese friend living in France was speeding w/o a license got off with verbal warning.

For those interested in legal fine points, the PRC objected to the signature and ratification of the 1949 agreement by the ROC which was done in 1957, and only did so in 1997 as a part of another action affirming HKSAR's participation in the agreement.

So between 1971 to 1997, PRC did not object to the agreement, nor did the PRC ever objected to the 1926 agreement signed by the ROC.

Because there was no formal withdrawal from these two treaties, the PRC has, in effect, acquiesced to them as the successor state to the ROC.

Furthermore, because the PRC did not object to the ROC's continued participation in the agreement since 1971, the PRC's acquiescence to Chinese territory holding the agreement valid is, in effect, evidence of their continued participation in the treaty. The same argument can be made with regard to their affirmation of HKSAR's participation in the agreement.

Therefore, a case can be made that the PRC, as the lawful successor state to the ROC and not having expressly renounced these treaties, are in fact bound by them by their pattern of both acquiescence to it, and affirmation of it in select instances, even though it is not a signatory nor did it ratify the 1949 treaty.

Mind you, the MOFA of PRC can make the opposite case, and it would be interesting to see which case would be upheld by Chinese, and when that is exhausted, international courts.

A much better idea.... why don't the MOFA go ahead and, with whatever reservations deemed appropriate, sign and ratify the 1949 and 1968 treaties?

By doing so, China would also ensure that Chinese driving licenses, when supplemented by the IDP, is valid in most of the world.

Ahhhh the voice of Chinese interest and reason....

There is a better metric, which is the % of blacks that have ever been convicted of a felony, which means they are often permanently barred from many jobs, disenfranchised, etc.

At least 13% of black males cannot vote, and in certain states, the percentage is 1/3.

The rate is expected to hit 30% in 2020, and in 2 states, 40% of all black males.

Funny how the discussion stops dead when this side of America comes up....

I would have to agree with A B about the African-American situation in the United States. A lot of the times, my friends will get caught for the following offense "driving while black".

It's hard to admit but it's true. Caucasian people will get off with a lot more than African-American people. It's just an observation from what I see and what my African-American and Caucasian friends tell me.

If you are "driving while black"; they (the police) will ticket you for the slightest offenses such as a broken tail light more likely than not driving at 70mph in a 65mph zone....when most people can get away driving 80mph (for the most part).

The United States does jail more people percent wise than China does. If anyone is to counter-argue this fact with "thats because they execute more"; Yes they may kill more people; but ultimately when compared to the population; it is almost proportional to the United States.

Just keep in mind that just because someone's culture or legal system or whatever you want to compare that is different than ours doesn't make it bad. You are just not use to dealing with it.

A B, if you are seriously convinced you are living in a police state in the U.S., I don't think there's anyone here who can disabused you of that notion. I can only say that the differences between the U.S. and Chinese legal and political systems -- pro and con -- are evident to most people, including even the most (well, maybe not the MOST) patriotric Chinese people.

And yes, I will take you up on the bet over the Int'l Drivers License. If you tried to go up against local officials in a Chinese court, you will almost certainly lose, if you ever even got to court, I can tell you that as an experienced investor in China.

Personally, I am willing to venture that following about nearly ever person reading or writing on this blog ... that if you visited China (or any other country) and were arrested for, say, littering, were denied access to a lawyer or your consulate, and told to sign a confession or else "something much worse will happen", and told you would be put in a common jail cell for seven days and fed only rice, you'd be pissing yourself, much less "whining". And if you can't admit that, I can't help you.

Many years ago, I was held in very mild detention for 3 days by the PSB for traveling to a "prohibited" location. VERY MILD, they were quite polite to me. But I will certainly never forget the sensation of someone having absolute power over my fate.

FYI, you can't bring liquids or gels over 100ml on a Chinese plane either.

Isn't it sort of amusing how many people are whining about

"unclear, contradictory, ridiculously strict, or abuse of power, arbitrary officials and police... "

"chinese standards of driving"

Pretty clear this bunch has never come across this country called the United States....

Try to export Philip Zimmermann's PGP (Encryption Program) and see what happens...

Or try to take an 8oz bottle of baby formula on board a regularly scheduled flight....

Or try to get a H-1b Visa....

Or try to comply with CARB rules with regard to a gas powered hedge trimmmer....

Or try to fly while Muslim...

Or...

Tim need to be selling advertising on this site for pacifiers, diapers, and rattlers for his readers.

I for one, would dearly love to get a valid "International Driving Permit", use it in mainland China and see if they would relent if I were caught driving with it as long as I am doing nothing wrong.

Would anyone here bet that I would beat any local government in a Chinese court?

Re: "but it would be nice if China actually informed people of the laws"

Excuse me, which part of "driving without a valid license is illegal" do you not anticipate or understand?

Of course, A B, that's all very true. Nothing is black and white. There's discretion (if you want to call it that) in any legal system. But this is an order of magnitude apart. Just spend some time here and find out.

BTW, I related this story (in a consciously unbiased manner) to my Chinese wife and she was totally appalled, thought it was very bad for China's image.

Think for a moment. What if this guy was married? Had kids in school? Owned a business in Shanghai ... what would happen to his employees? To his investment? Yes, I realize the same (deportation) can happen to illegal immigrants in the U.S., but he WASN'T an illegal immigrant.

To clarify:

Saying that "He broke Rule X so he should face penalty Y" assumes that China is a society that operates based on rule of law. In fact, it is a society that mainly operates based on a combination of dictat and negotiation.

Here's how it works. The government decides that sneezing is unhealthy and spreads germs. A bureaucrat who wants to get ahead comes out with a rule that anyone who sneezes goes to jail for 7 days. Local police get the rule and figure they better get busy arresting people before they get accused of being lax. People start getting arrested and complain that this rule makes absolutely no sense, is completely ridiculous, which everyone (including the police and probably the bureaucrat himself) agrees with.

Repealing the rule, however, would involve a loss of face and admitting that the government was wrong, which could undermine respect for authority. So, without telling anyone, the rule quietly goes unenforced. People start to realize nobody is getting arrested and go back to normal life. However, note that the rule is still on the books, which is useful, because if the government ever has a problem with someone, it just has to wait until they sneeze and say "aha, you broke the no-sneezing rule, off to jail!" But for the most part, everyone just breaks the rule and is perfectly happy.

When I lived in Beijing, it was technically a violation for a foreigner to live in my building. The building was filled with foreigners. I don't know if the landlord paid off the police or what, but there wasn't enough "approved" housing for all the foreigners so they had to live somewhere! The police knew I was there, I registered. I guess they could have come and arrested me in the middle of the night if they wanted. But what purpose would that serve?

I see the motorscooter license in the same light.

What's this mumbo jumbo about having a Taiwanese friend being a mistake? Mainland Chinese are not instantly angered by the presence of a Taiwanese person. Unless that Taiwanese person's attitude was very sour and demeaning which is usually the case for hatred. If the cops acted in hatred towards the Taiwanese friend, it is more likely than not the Taiwanese friend giving them attitude.

If I gave a police officer attitude while I was under interrogation I highly doubt he would act nice towards me. It's just the golden rule guys.

My relatives are Taiwanese and they have no problems in China. So I don't see why having a Taiwanese friend would have made it more difficult for him.

I was doing some research and ran into a news article about the a bill being passed in Georgia (the State) that would make driving without a valid license a felony and the bill would also require a prison sentence of two days to 12 months on the first offense. Now that is harsh. 7 days in China? He got off easy.

You know you broke the law and you paid the price. So quit whining.
i believe you also go straight to jail if drive without license(local of Int'l) in HK.
I wonder what the punishment is if you broke the same law in Singapore?

To Pffefer --perhaps someone could get 90 days in the U.S. for driving without a license, but in reality, all you'd get is a ticket and fine unless there is another violation to go along with it - like being drunk. Even then, you'd be out in a day after posting bail. Seems a bit extreme to me, but it is China's decision how to deal with it.

Tim,

A week in prison? Quite lenient if you ask me. In Connecticut, you might be jailed for 90 days for driving without a license.
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0072.htm

What is the fuss about? He drove without a (Chinese) license, he broke the law and he was punished. What's wrong with that? What does it say about China? Finally foreigners no longer enjoy the "first-class citizen" status that they take for granted.

@jeff

Let's ask the question as to what is the reasonable sentence for someone who is a native Shanghainese?

If a Shanghainese is caught driving without a license, what would have happened?

Remember, he has a foreign license which is the equivalent of no license.

In order to preserve the credibility and fairless of the law, you can't make such a judgment without reference to how other cases are handled.

There may be other factors, such as his likelihood of fleeing prosecution that would make a case for him being kept in jail longer (rather than being able to post bail).

It is not clear to me that he was kept there for a week as his "sentence" or he was held there because he might not appear for a hearing or he was not granted bail or he failed to post bail.... so lets get the facts first.

Let's ask a real Shanghai lawyer / expert what is the fair way to treat someone in a similar situation, regardless of his country of origins.

Jeff --- Please don't rush to judgment, either for or against him.

Tim...

Oh dear, that last blurb of mine needed some copy editing.

Sorry...

Every time I travel, it just seems that "foreigners" or Americans for some reason believe they are ABOVE the law.

When we travel from state to state in the United States we can expect law changes but why not from country to country?

I found this while searching the Google for my state:

"Driving Without a License in California

It is illegal to drive a vehicle on a street or highway in California without a valid driver's license. Doing so is a crime. The driver can be cited, arrested, prosecuted and ultimately jailed.

But to be valid, the driver's license doesn't have to be issued by the California DMV. A person may drive in California with a properly issued driver's license from another state or even a foreign country. However, once the person establishes residency in California, he or she must go to our DMV and obtain a California license.
If you're driving without a valid drivers license in the United States, you're breaking the law. I would expect no less from another country. In fact you should be more careful."

He's been driving in Shanghai for 3 years. I am pretty sure he's taken residence. Please note that in America you can be jailed too.

He had no understanding of the traffic laws. I don't feel sorry for him.

However, I do think the punishment was quite overboard and a fine would have been fine.

Let me ask the readers, what would the American government do to a Chinese national driving without one of the United States state drivers licenses and could not read or speak English?